Do you have problem getting Warmachine/Hordes minis you desire?

Is Warmachine/Hordes products really that hard to access?

As I know and heard myself that there a several people who is wanted to play the game but cant get the Minis/Books.
Some ordered from LGS for months and yet still cant get it. I think this is not good for the community. As a player if felt its bad when someone who wanted to start or expand their armies and cant get their model they desire.

It can be a bummer if that is the case, but I think we also have to understand that the WM community is really small in KL compared to 40K and its a big risk for LGS to bring in the supplies in bulk for the fear that they will be on the shelf for a long time. Things might not be moving fast enough for them to turn a profit.

Having said that, I would say that I am an impulsive buyer. By that I mean, I see something I like, I check my wallet, and I buy. So if something IS available at the shop, there's a chance I might get it. Otherwise, its a missed opportunity. I suppose, when there are more players in the hobby, then there's a chance that lGS might take bigger gamble

gizmoduck wrote:It can be a bummer if that is the case, but I think we also have to understand that the WM community is really small in KL compared to 40K and its a big risk for LGS to bring in the supplies in bulk for the fear that they will be on the shelf for a long time. Things might not be moving fast enough for them to turn a profit.

Having said that, I would say that I am an impulsive buyer. By that I mean, I see something I like, I check my wallet, and I buy. So if something IS available at the shop, there's a chance I might get it. Otherwise, its a missed opportunity. I suppose, when there are more players in the hobby, then there's a chance that lGS might take bigger gamble

I agree bout the small community and LGS concerns,
Regarding Impulsive buying that can't be help la I think not until the communities that big .
Well I not expecting them to stocks lots anyway at least dont keep ur shaft empty will do the tricks or atleast bring in what people already paid and order la.

As most of u guys can see the communities is growing more new faces are playing, regular players begin to expand thier army and increase game play points to 25P-35P.

Well my only concern is as we do all this work doing demo and stuff getting ppl in the game but they cant get the minis ... Its like giving ppl" Masa Depan Gelap" only .

Short answer: Yes I do have a problem with that

Another problem is having a stable and consistant source (especially in terms of time) for WM stuff.

almond wrote:Another problem is having a stable and consistant source (especially in terms of time) for WM stuff.

What do you mean? Time between order and arrival?

@jasechew: What's the problem? I thought you guys order stuff online? Product availability seems good to me and I think most places can deliver within 2 weeks? Generally, if the order value is less than RM500, it doesn't even get held by customs. Or is there something I'm not understanding here?

As for LGS support, well. It's the 40k problem, I think. It's the largest game in town. It's the easiest boxes for LGSes to move. So far only WGS brings WM/H in any significant quantity and since the price drop, it's pretty good. Availability of stuff is sketchy, though.

I think Kenji is also thinking of bringing in WM/H - he plays the game, I think. Khador, iinm? The risk is what kind of prices will that be? Can an LGS bring stuff in cheaply enough to be profitable? That something hard to answer unless and until you run your own shop, I guess.

I think the problem for us is that WM/H is just not big enough here for an LGS to stock everything. Even every popular thing. #shrug#

I fink the concern is having the bare essentials on hand for newbies, such as starters, templates, books etc.

Long as GW-bug's got its teef in people, WM/H stuff is going to be a secondary concern for all game shops (not as big a cash cow), so unless a shop specializes in it (A very dangerous proposition from their PoV) we're largely on our own for support, using the nomadic approach that we currently use.

Well yeah I do order my stuff online,
As I always say I stay Neutral, Hahaha I dont simply go offer anyone who wanna start WM to help them order online (which I could) as it will effect the LGS who carries the product. In fact I asked them to go get from LGS.

The thing is this is the part I dont get it WM/H easily got bout 30 players base now and it still growing. Its definitely a market there. Well at least bigger market then any Warhammer Fantasy, Blood Bowl or any other random table top games besides Warhammer 40K.

Yes, I understand where you (both squee and jasechew) are coming from now. I completely agree, btw. Speaking from my own experience and observations, it is really exasperating to be all excited about a new game (newbie's perspective) and not being able to get what you want/need there and then. It kills the excitement. Especially when it takes months to get it from an LGS.

Problem is, what is an LGS to stock? I'd imagine an LGS would not want to order 10 Prime MkII (eg. I think the PP books come in boxes of 10) and only be able to move 4 because everyone else already has a copy. You'd have to have quite a bit of working capital to keep stock speculatively.

Which is why most LGS stock 40k, it's just easier to move. However, I'm optimistic and I think WM/H will become pretty big in the next year or so. We've already seen a huge jump in new players in the last 6 months!

So... how do we improve this situation? For one thing, I think it's awesome that you guys go from one LGS to another to play WM/H - when people see how cool it is (and the number of people playing) it will certainly pique their interest. It's also good for the LGS to see our community active so they might be tempted to bring in more stuff.

Apart from that, though... what else? I don't think any of us has the vast resources to stock newbie-centric items that we can easily sell to new players. Although, there is a business model for this: Cooperatives. I'm sure you guys remember the Koprasi Sekolah? Similar things exist for universities, farmers, police and army.

The other thing is, and this will take some negotiation and convincing skills, is to give a list of items that we think newbies would definitely need and ask LGSes to stock these as a priority. Next would be the popular items like the heavy jack boxes, popular units (eg. Choir of Menoth? Winter Guard?). We should list down the price as well so that the LGS ownder can see what kind of funds they would need. They get trader discounts so it'll be less for them - but they also have to pay shipping and taxes, don't forget.

Hmm... Anything else you guys can think of?

What I meant with time is, it's the availability of the items as well as reliable operating store hours >.>

But that aside, I can see the problem of stocking up on WM/H. It's the number of models required and the factions. Let's see, with WH40K, you need a lot of models to play, meaning people will buy more stuff and the cost of the crate can be justified.

For WM/H, we only need a unit minimum or a jack here and there. The minimum case order is what, 10 copies? With only a handful of players grabbing them the stores would only get to push around 40% of their inventory at any given time.

I agree with Squee though, the basics can be brought in safely. Stuff like templates would be awesome because they are faction independent.

The way I see it, we have two options locally:

1) Get more players.
2) Pick up another faction to soak up the LGS stock. The factions must overlap a bit with the existing players so the stock can move more reliably.

Wayfarer wrote:The other thing is, and this will take some negotiation and convincing skills, is to give a list of items that we think newbies would definitely need and ask LGSes to stock these as a priority. Next would be the popular items like the heavy jack boxes, popular units (eg. Choir of Menoth? Winter Guard?). We should list down the price as well so that the LGS ownder can see what kind of funds they would need. They get trader discounts so it'll be less for them - but they also have to pay shipping and taxes, don't forget.

Hmm... Anything else you guys can think of?

Wayfarer sorry man I really dont get what u trying to say
Are u telling me that we need to spoon feed our local LGS to the extend of telling them what to bring in and how much to sell?

Well I would say how old u think our LGS is 4 years old? Have some faith in them man
I believe they already knew what they need to bring in time. If our local LGS wanna information I'm pretty sure they will ask for our feedback and opinion on this.

@jasechew: Try to be constructive, dude. We talked about availability and ease/speed of getting stuff we need. Come on, I'm just brainstorming here - I don't see you coming up with any ideas to improve the situation?

Anyway, I don't mean spoon-feed. You must remember, LGS owners don't always know what's popular. Honestly, I don't have much faith in most LGSes when it comes to anything other than 40k. Apart from rulebooks, faction books and starter boxes (those are no-brainers) what else should they bring in? eg. almond mentioned templates, yes that's useful.

As a matter of fact, Wolf did ask me a couple of times "What else do you think I should bring in? What WM/H stuff do you guys want to see?". Only the faction players will know what they want or like and what other players of that faction would likely want or not want. eg. As a CO player, I think it's probably safe to say that you don't have to bring in Reeves of Orboros.

Like I said, this will need some convincing skills. Put yourself in the shoes of an LGS owner. Bringing in even just:

Warcasters, Starter boxes, rulebooks, faction books, template sets, just 2 types of units, 3 types of solos...

...for every single faction is likely to cost them several thousand RM for the minimum numbers they need to order.

Wayfarer wrote:
The other thing is, and this will take some negotiation and convincing skills, is to give a list of items that we think newbies would definitely need and ask LGSes to stock these as a priority. Next would be the popular items like the heavy jack boxes, popular units (eg. Choir of Menoth? Winter Guard?). We should list down the price as well so that the LGS ownder can see what kind of funds they would need. They get trader discounts so it'll be less for them - but they also have to pay shipping and taxes, don't forget.

Interesting idea but if that is the case, LGS may just end up with a "per order basis" plan for WM stocks instead as it is a 'better' idea. What LGS' here needs to realise is that there is indeed an on-going demand for WM and due to efforts of local affectionate players, the community is expanding. Once they realise this and start bringing in stock, sales would be more beneficial rather than only having limited stock of "popular" units. Do note that popular units also suffer the "crate issue" (come in a box of 10, only able to sell 4) sooner or later. People want variety. Heck, it is partly what the game is about. By having a set of "popular units", the game can be seen as 1-dimensional (which it surely isn't).

I am currently seeing some strong efforts by players to show LGS owners that there is a demand for WM. Although some mistakes were made here and there, the decision to 'act' is indeed commendable. I was so delighted to hear that one LGS owner even thought of expanding his shop to sell WM simply by hearing, and then knowing, that there is a group of WM players going around playing games without a 'proper LGS'. It shows at the very least that these affectionate player's efforts have not gone in vain.


edit: dammit i'm an Admin and I went OT. WARNING GIVEN. XD

Wayfarer wrote:
Anyway, I don't mean spoon-feed. You must remember, LGS owners don't always know what's popular. Honestly, I don't have much faith in most LGSes when it comes to anything other than 40k. Apart from rulebooks, faction books and starter boxes (those are no-brainers) what else should they bring in? eg. almond mentioned templates, yes that's useful.

Agreed. It's good to give feedback to LGS owners, but to tell one what to stock when he hasn't the slightest experience of selling WM is a really bad convincing point (in getting a place to stock WM stuffs) from my point of view.


Also in case anyone is wondering, I can't comment on an idea for this thread because I simply have none at the moment.

Wayfarer wrote:As a CO player, I think it's probably safe to say that you don't have to bring in Reeves of Orboros.

Sorry. On this matter, I have to chime in. When you're talking bout what new players are buying, you cannot assume that the model that is 'efficient', 'powerful' & 'uber' is the only sort of models that people will buy. There are always people who will buy miniatures that people will buy simply because it's 'their faction'. To call yourself a faction player, frankly i think that in the end, that guy will end up buying everything. In fact, they may buy the model simply because it's their faction model that looks just nice to them. In this example, Reeves.

On the availability matter, not everyone is willing to wait for stock to come in in trickle amount or on-order-specific-basis. Yes, shops do suffer from overstock and the rest, but players also suffer when they do not get the stuff in hand, which also leads to buying online for those can. Because it gives them faster access. Not to mention cheaper, but that's another matter.

Lastly, as almond has mentioned. Accessibility. Frankly, I'm more free to play Mon to THursday night compared to weekends and friday nights. Since those 3 days, I tend to spend more time with family and especially with end of year around the corner, I get called up to go to family weddings.. etc. So yes, shops that is open to various timing also helps. And Tabletop minis are not exactly a game you can play at McD easily unlike CCG.

Agreed, this "per order basis" is the current situation, isn't it? You want more variety, in stock? Well, the problem's still there. Which ones to bring in? If I were a store owner, I certainly don't want to be stuck with stock for years... eg. there're still plenty of WM/H models at WGS that still have MkI cards. A few here and there is inevitable, but whole crates would be a disaster. How to convince a store owner that it won't be a disaster?

For a business, cashflow will determine if you stay open or bungkus.

Like you said, Tekanan, the situation is improving. We should encourage the LGS owners and support them when they support us. Which is why I'm happy that we're making terrain at The Tavern! Are we keeping the terrain there? This is an excellent opportunity for us, since iinm, The Tavern does not currently have a flagship miniatures game. We could make WM/H the 40k there!

I think jasechew's effort to organize gaming trips to all those places is an excellent way to enhance visibility of this game - for both LGS owners as well as potential players. So kudos to jasechew there. That will help in the longer term, though.

What about the stated problem in the OP? Potential players want to get into the game but have difficulty in getting stuff from LGS. LGS want to see more players before getting more (or even, any) stuff unless you do "per order basis" which comes back to the problem for potential players. How do we break out of this chicken and egg cycle?

@adiaze: Sorry bro, I have to disagree with you. If you like and want to field Reeves (in this example), you're an edge case. For an LGS owner, you're a perfect "per order basis" customer. Or you could get stuff online. As a store owner you can't just simply stock everything unless you have lots of capital. That's just a fact of life. Like I said, put yourself in the store owner's shoes and think if you'd make that decision.

They'd want to bring in a small variety of things (like I mentioned above) that almost everyone (in that faction) wants or will want. Only a few things. Now they have to do that for every single faction. That's already a lot of money to lock into stock, dude.

@Wayfarer: By your own reasoning, this game cannot grow rapidly in any way that it is now. Looking at it from shopkeepers perspective all the time, then face it. This game, at this point, even with somewhat checkered growth, cannot GROW. Period. If the decision to get models for newbies and any players in fact are on basis of order first and receive later, and yes, I do understand the shop point of view of stock, cost, money and unable to rotate cashflow and all that, but it also means that there very little NEW local demand. New players are not exactly waiting types, that they can wait for 2-3 weeks for stock to arrive. And by your own definition, buy per order also means that the player can lose interest in waiting for the stock to arrive. And frankly, it is also more expensive for shops to order per order type, hence it seems to me that LGS will wait for a collected order pile before making the order, thus an order that can arrive in 7-10 days can extend to a 3-6 weeks, far too long for a newbie to wait, where they have the enthusiasm to play and the fires of passion and excitement is still there.

What this also means that shops cannot sit and wait for players to come. They have a role to promote the game, and promote it heavily if they want the player base to grow, and to get more orders coming in and being able to get rid of existing stock.

To heap all that onto the players' hand would only mean that this game will slowly fizzle out. Not all players are willing to volunteer to do the promoting and heaping it on a few players are not helping the situtation.

I'm all for promoting and get players in, but that would mean that basically shops more importantly, must have demo copies ready to promote, and also avaialble stock of starters to sell. All currently difficult with the present logistics situation.

Coming back to the issue of logistics, we cannot get a decent drop-in, adhoc game going at any time. Nevermind that we cannot even get newbies to drop-in due to location variance and inaccessibility. The fact that we can only get a gaming going at certain times and on certain days is also a problem of access that OP mentioned earlier. It's hard to grab newbie and even current players to just find a gaming to get going when they want to.


What about solutions? In my opinion for one, the ones who have more models with them, like what Jase is doing, have sets ready to demo if you find new players... and play them from starter boxes since it's easy for them to grab it if they like. Having them at hand means you can straight away ready to demo and try to entice

Logistics? Frankly it's hard as the shops that can support the game is smaller, so that creates a logistic issue I'm not sure is easy to solve.

Just my 2 cents

adiaze wrote:
What this also means that shops cannot sit and wait for players to come. They have a role to promote the game, and promote it heavily if they want the player base to grow, and to get more orders coming in and being able to get rid of existing stock.

This I could not agree more and something the LGS' needs to commit at least 'some' resources into even if it's just buying dinner for some gamers who are willing to promote for free.

@adiaze: Wow, anger, much? If you're one of us waiting weeks for stuff, I sympathise. I've been waiting many weeks for some CO stuff myself.

I never said that the game cannot grow - in fact, it certainly has! I don't know when you started playing but if you knew WM/H from MkI days then you'd know that the game pretty much died out until around middle of this year.

Well before Tekanan started playing, it was only a very small hardcore group playing at squee's place and almost none at any LGS I went to. There were no organized play of any sort. When Wolf decided to host Season 2 of this year's league there were only 4, then 3 players. At Season 3 (that just ended) it was full at 8 players. WGS was the only place doing any support for WM/H at the time. It is still the only shop that has any significant stock of WM/H at this time.

I'd say that WGS' support for WM/H MkII, plus jasechew's tireless championing of the game resulted in the increase in WM/H players. The key was getting the visibility of people playing at shops. I am of the opinion that LGSes are an important part of the equation. That's just my opinion.

Ideally, any given newbie could walk into an LGS and immediately get what he/she wants off the shelf, there and then. Currently, this is not the case except in some limited fashion at WGS (though they will be restocking soon, I heard).

I was suggesting that this ideal situation can be achieved with some help from the community. To get there, as the first step, I'm suggesting to advise the LGS (it depends on how close you are to the owner, I guess or, like jasechew pointed out, they might take offence) what to bring in. Bearing in mind that this requires a lot of capital. They are already spending a lot to stock the safe bets of 40k and whatever the 'cool' kids are playing these days.

So, we could help make the risk they are taking seem small enough to them that they'd actually do it - which is why I suggested giving a limited small-ish list of popular items that a faction player would likely get. In this way, hopefully, we reduce the problem (not solve completely yet) for players and pave they way for a better future situation whereby the LGS brings in more stuff on their own. Hopefully, when they see how many people are buying from them and how many of their customer want to play at their shop! This would then kick in the visibility (and availability) thus attracting even more players to this game.

You also have to understand, PP definitely depends on players themselves to promote the game - which is why they have the Press Ganger program! Press Gangers are players who are passionate enough about the game that they are willing to promote it - not just to players by giving demos but also to LGS owners to actually bring stuff in.

See here: http://privateerpress.com/community/press-gangers
(I keep saying jasechew more than qualifies for it but he did not seem interested.)

As for playing times, well, you can play at WGS daily now (well, when Wolf comes back from holidays) - you just need to call ahead. TT (The Tavern) is now open 7 days a week from 2pm to 2am or something like that? jasechew has gotten an invite from TT to come and play WM/H there, plus I met, I think it was Kenji once and he plays WM/H himself so I think he'd be willing to bring some stuff in. Maybe.

The situation is definitely getting better but we can also help it along and make sure it doesn't fizzle out. We can be part of the solution or be part of the problem and just complain.

btw. I notice your sig, adiaze, that you play L5R? They play that at TT, iinm

Sorry dude I have to talk on the oh so over used "chicken or egg" comment.

Business stands to gain from expanding a game, and I mean real gains, financially. O believe it's their job to promote, to know the product, able to set a fair acceptable pricing.

Else why do we call them a business. We take business risk? Running a business itself is a rewarding challenge.

Have you ever seen any other business get pampered the way you suggested. Any computer shop? Electronics? Levi jeans? It's business, it's their business to know the business they are in. Why do we need to spoon feed them.

We just choose not to buy from bad business that don't serve our needs and demands.

Those who have problems voice it out, if really can't get locally we do an order online.

Tekanan wrote:This I could not agree more and something the LGS' needs to commit at least 'some' resources into even if it's just buying dinner for some gamers who are willing to promote for free.

I agree somewhat to this. I'd suggest that WGS has committed.

I sound like a WGS champion but honestly? They have the most stock, they have spent money to host Leagues (those kits cost money, btw), Wolf demos WM/H himself. He's got a painted 75/100pt Khador force for rent for anyone who wants to play and did not bring his own. He's got a smaller Cryx force for demos against part of that Khador force. He's also got a small Skorne force. I've seen him demo WM/H at the store almost every Saturday that I've been there in the last couple of months.

There's thousands of RM held in the WM/H stock at the shop. That's thousands he's not used to bring in more of the safer bet, 40k.

That seems like commitment to me. It certainly could be better (more stock!). I'd be interested to know what the other LGSes have committed so far for WM/H? Well, if you're not satisfied, do something about it. Approach the owners. Or give up and go home. Order online. What's the problem?

You're right on one thing, Wolf's the only one that has committed the most to WM/H. I also prefer buying from him to online. If his shop is available daily, that's great! I just didn't know about the holiday thingy. ^.^ Thanks for the heads up.

I suppose the most souring thing is the timing, when you get down to it. It's the main argument of adiaze's post(s) as well if you've noticed. If we get the stock, we'll buy it. Time is crucial to rope in new players and extended, unannounced delays hurts more often than not. It kills enthusiasm.

Since the Tavern has invited us, let's make a showing there. We'll play as often as we can, break out new snazzy lists and make other people go 'ooh' and 'aah' over our cute little robots or furries :p

Wait wait!!!

We way off topic, this is not about what a shop should or should not do.

This is about who have trouble getting what they wanted. We just want to know who needs help, and wanted to try and help them.

Why and how did it decent in to this argument, we shall know.

So raise your hands, who needs help, we discuss.



Off topic. Blardy demo should be done as PP suggested, with battle group box! They even make sure all PG have at least two.

I appreciate wolf effort, but your over zealous defending is making him look bad. I admire his passion and as a nice guy i respect him. While we were not complaining, you starting the defensive note just agitate people and made wolf the collateral damage. Please stop hurting wolf. And stay on topic.

Since you are his close advisor, please help players who have placed orders get their stuff.

@Gliblit: Wha...? I don't know how I'm hurting Wolf. Honestly. I did not start it on a defensive note and I certainly did not intend to "just agitate people". Please read my first reply on this thread.

And I'm certainly no advisor to Wolf. I'm simply a friendly customer. Sometimes, he asks my opinion, that's all.

@almond: Well, I fully understand that - I'm a WM/H player too, I feel the same way. I was just trying to suggest a way to make the situation - our situation - better than it currently is.

Ah well, it's entirely possible I've misunderstood the OP, it's not the first time and it certainly won't be the last. I blame it on my age!

@everyone: Really sorry for the all aggro, folks. I didn't intend to start an argument, honest! I won't pollute this thread again, please do continue with the original intent of this thread.

adiaze wrote:And Tabletop minis are not exactly a game you can play at McD easily unlike CCG.

I saw this and I beg to differ on this small matter. I've played Warmachine in McD, in a restaurant, in a mamak, on a uni table. And if I had brought my minis, I'd have also played in Popeyes once. Just a little improvisation with terrain (Sauce bottles, books, stacks of cards).

Warmachine is such a nice fast pace game in 15 points, and such a small army can be brought anywhere. I've had onlookers ask about the game before too.

On the topic at hand, I too get my miniatures online, but I've purchased a couple of stuff from Wolf as well when he has stuff I want, especially Force books. So no problem maybe, although I will support any of our local game stores if they do bring stuff in. (Plus I won't get another Force book online after my last fiasco with our local Pos Malaysia).

I have an idea: Let's do this backwards.

1) We ask our LGS what they have in stock and what will be in stock in the next coming shipment. Set aside those purchases when the shipment comes in.

2) If the model(s) that we want are not on the list, we can go online for them.

Yes, we'll be waiting for a while, but it's not like we're attending Gencon or anything. Another idea on how to promote the game and ensure more stock is to have official parallel PP league (Blasted Heath, Summer Rampage, whatever).

A kit is limited to 8 players, most likely filled up with veteran players. New and returning players might not be so keen on getting their ass whupped so hard and so often in those 13 weeks. So a new "green" league will make sure that we have 2 cells running, meaning more games being played often.

If we have 30 players or so, we can run 3 cells. Of course, there's the money bit to consider. Either we have a group of players split pay for the kits or have a couple of generous sponsors, whichever floats your boat.

If we announce that we have a tournament scene going on, I'm sure that LGS will not hesitate to stock up because they know there's an urgent need for new models. New players will have the chance to buy them as well. All that's required to complete the puzzle is the time for the stock to hit the shelves.